Now this is a guest post I know everyone in the industry is going to be interested in. Many of us have been campaigning for PVC to be considered for listed buildings. With product improvements making such massive strides, the time is now right for PVC to be considered for the country’s oldest buildings. Mick Ramsden, author of the guest post below, explains how he won an order for PVC sash windows on a Grade 2 listed building:
We have just received listed building consent for our Grade II listed cottage to change the windows from wooden VS to UPVC VS.
I thought it may be useful to explain the process we went through to help any interested parties wanting to do similar for a listed building or building in a conservation area. I have been involved in the PVC industry for a number of years so I had a slight advantage knowing the market and also how much UPVC VS window systems have improved in recent years.
You do have to go through a full planning application which for Blackburn & Darwen Council means completing an application for “listed building consent for alterations, extensions or demolition of a listed building”. A crucial tip here is to speak to the Planning & Conservation Officer before you embark on the process. Explain what you want to do, invite them round to your house and above all BE PREPARED TO LISTEN TO THE OFFICER as they may give pointers to follow or early indication what grounds for refusal might be used.
At first the Planning Officer was cool but not completely cold to the proposal. But she did come round to have a look at the house. The mantra they use is that the significance of the listed building should not be harmed. Where I listened to what was said where the Planning Officer was not keen on the cruder detail of the jointing around the sash horns on a standard PVC VS window. Also I believed that a wood effect lamination was a must to replicate natural wood and get away from a “shiny” PVC finish.
The application process coincided with a visit by me to the FIT show. At the show I saw a fully mechanically jointed VS window (Genesis VS) shown by Bison Frames UK with run through sash horns. I thought this may overcome the concerns by the Planning Officer about the horn detail and that the mechanical jointing details generally mimic wooden window construction. I discussed this new window with the officer and she suggested I put my application in.
The application process is a little laborious and OTT (just for changing your windows). You require the following:
- A completed listed building consent form
- Front & rear elevation 1:50 drawings (I did manage to draw these myself)
- Provide 1:1250 location plan of your house location (go on the English Heritage website for this)
- Design statement
- Heritage statement
- Section drawing of selected PVC profile (Spectus in this case, available from their website)
- Photos of the windows
- Literature to back-up application – I scoured the internet to find examples of UPVC in listed buildings and conservation areas and received a letter from Bison Frames explaining the features and benefits of the Genesis VS window
I can provide any further information to any interested party but do your own research and ensure your supporting argument is pertinent to your situation. The Planning Officer visited again and I had sample Genesis VS windows to show her, including a comparison of a standard welded VS window against the mechanically jointed Genesis to highlight the difference the officer had picked out as a potential for rejection.
The quality of the Genesis VS window and similarity to wooden VS windows undoubtedly swung the decision as the application was passed for the reason it was not detrimental to the listed building status of the dwelling. I want to emphasise that all applications will be dealt with on their own merits. But more examples like this will increase the precedent of using UPVC in a listed building situation. Just ensure you listen to the potential objections by the Planning Officer and see if they can be addressed. Good luck.
Mick Ramsden
This is good to know, we get many enquiries from listed buildings and have always turned them away. I will get my planning man on the case in future! Thanks for the info!
I wouldn’t read too much in to this. This was the same council which let a listed building have some original stone masonry removed from its exterior, it was only replaced after local people complained, and I presume English Heritage got involved. I was under the impression that listed buildings could not have UPVC windows period. Have googled it from what I can see its a straigh no from most councils.
It’s a no and it should remain a no. Plastic windows have no place whatsoever in listed or period buildings and neither do aluminium. No matter how many “me too” imitation horns, wood effects, “authentic” sash, putty lines, flush sash, woodgrain effects and so forth are introduced, they’re fake windows good enough in an average property and have absolutely no place in any historic or listed building. What the councils ought to address, apart from the fact these are not the right products is is the limited lifespan of these plastic windows. The whole point of replacing like for like… Read more »
I have to agree with everything said here. Upvc has its place and listed buildings are not the place
and in old falling down barns? Just for the sake of keeping planning officers with something to do! Climate change is upon us. UK needs to plant a million trees in the next few years….upvc is recycled plastics, can be wood grained, and has considerably improved. Even if the wooden windows remained, though they would rot, there won’t be humans around to see them. We need to preserve our buildings but not at the expense of the planet.
My issue isn’t about Grade I or II listed properties and I tend to agree with Nick! Historic buildings of significant architectural heritage should be restored with original materials, so that the building will remain “original” for later generations. I certainly don’t want houses of parliament or Buckingham palace fitted with plastic sash windows, ali inserts or anything other than restoration of the originals. My issue is that local officers in conservation areas apply the same standards when they have no right to. They take English Heritage stance the wood is good anything else is inappropriate. Sympathetic detail and design… Read more »
Fully agree with Nick and Alan – this isn’t good for the heritage of the country. Plastic windows have a place – but not in listed buildings nor in many conservation areas (I live in one of the latter and constantly have to deal with local authorities at work when they object to plastic where it really wouldn’t be a problem aesthetically or otherwise.
Wood is wood. Plastic is plastic. And always will be. Right product in the right place.
I know people get excited by conservation areas, but they are not important enough to be listed, hence its only the general appearance, opening style, design of product that needs to be sympathetic, regardless of material.
It depends – I work in London. Both Camden and Westminster are vehemently anti-uPVC in their conservation areas and do what they can to frustrate residents who aren’t in conservation areas if they can. Harrow Council are the same. Brent is a bit less picky, but still put up a barrier if they can. Hillingdon is patchy – I am in Hillingdon and as I said in a Conservation Area. We can put in plastic if it matches the original design of the wooden windows. If you are lucky enough to be able to get away with replication, then well,… Read more »
We have never tried to push our customers into installing our windows into listed buildings.
However conservation areas though are a different criteria, when we spent time with Heritage Officers at the local authorities, like one we did last year, they asked us to compare our profiles to the timber detail, they were delighted when we answered their questions.This lead to our window only, being specified for the whole of this particular local authorities Conservation area, without it having to go through planning.
There are a few misconceptions in these comments, which I think need clearing up. I know that – as a representative of a uPVC sash window manufacturer – I’ll be accused of bias, but c’est la vie ;) Firstly, there is a big difference between Grade I / Grade II* listing and standard Grade II. The first two categories cover buildings of exceptional historic interest (like Buckingham Palace), and represent only 8% of the total number of listed buildings. The other 92% of the 350,000 total umber are Grade II. Any building built before 1700 and most built between 1700… Read more »
Hi Mike, do you know of any cases where Roseview has been accepted in a Grade II listed building? I am desperate to install Roseview Ultimate Rose in my Grade II building but have had my application denied. I am considering whether to go to appeal but I’m just trying to arm myself with the relevant information before I make that decision. In my case, many of the original windows had already been replaced with (terrible) PVC-u by the time the building was listed. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
I agree that there is a place for every product but UPVC or Aluminium hasnt yet come up with a replacement for a traditionally weighted sash window, so shouldn’t be used in a grade 2 listed building. I know the UPVC heads are going to say that the run through horns, wood grain effect and so one make the window a good match, but its not the same profile. Doesn’t have a parting bead or staffing bead, frame dimensions are different. They have come up with good replicas of spiral balanced sash windows so if the homeowner prefers they should… Read more »
Again, assumptions being made about the type of windows in a Grade II property. Ive lived in a Grade II listed building for the past 25 years. We don’t have weighted sash windows and over the years we have struggled to maintain the wood frames. The key part of the building is not the windows, but the solid oak beams. Indeed, in converting it into flats some walls are covered and protected by false walls. I would rather see a lovely historic building with uPVC windows, giving the property a better appearance and also providing the needed insulation, than wood… Read more »
All of the above comments reflect my own thought processes in deciding whether to replace with PVC or not. We are one of two coach houses attatched to the original old hall which carries the listing. Our current wooden windows are not period, they are basic spiral balanced sliding sash put in during a refurbishment of the coach houses some time before we moved in. We have painted, spliced, painted again and the time had come to replace. It is only because we found a quality, replica window that in our opinion (and the planners) did not harm the significance… Read more »
Mike writes a very good article here (that’s hard for a competitor to say!) but done well most people wouldn’t know a PVCu sash window if they saw one, they look that convincing. A planner sent in to decided on an appeal, actually said “these windows look indistinguishable from the timber originals…..even at close quarters”. He was referring to a bygone sash window 8 years ago! I know the phrase is now being copied but masterframe have the original documents to substantiate the original claim. As for Dodge1982, part of the reason they achieved such accolades are because we do… Read more »
Alan,
Are you referring to the vintage collection by masterframe?..
The Vintage collection is the trade equivalent and has the same staff bead options as described in the earlier blog but the planners actually saw a Bygone collection window (same frame, sash, staff beads etc). don’t get me wrong they still made observations about a couple of improvements which we subsequently incorporated. My advice for CO or planners is try discussion, listen and understand objections and be prepared to build a window to their specification (most can be overcome) never change without permission, but do challenge on appeal. We now employ a planner to assist key clients challenge and overcome… Read more »
I would agree Alan, we only supply and install wooden products but we still have CO’s and planners wanting “special” profiles when standard profiles will do. We use a specialist Heritage Architect for all of our listed applications and yes we often have to go to appeal to.
I am sorry,but nick is totally wrong,my house is grade Ii listed,the front elevation are softwood sliding sashes,and have been replaced three times in the last 30 years.
I’m fed up with the noise and pollution coming through our single glazed sash windows, not to mention the high heating costs . I have set up a petition here https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/132978/sponsors/0xuhS7I2f7pDM5zJ1HD
It’s the ludite, “victorian dad” attitude that is the issue here. There are many UPVC frames available today in 2016, that look the part and are indistinguishable from the impractical wooden frame. Surely now, in an age where we are rapidly killing off the planet with the need for energy, it is time to change the priorities, and encourage more efficient homes. Rather than let a few tree-hugging do-gooders insist on a poorly insulating window, or overly expensive alternative be the priority because it “looks right”, let’s take a common sense approach and use whatever it takes to keep energy/heating… Read more »
That’s pretty cool, thanks
Hi, is there any way that I can get in touch with Mick Ramsden to learn about the details of this case? I have a Grade II listed house and have just had my application turned down for replacement of wooden sash windows with PVC alternatives (very good replicas of wooden windows). I am tempted to take my case to appeal but it would help a great deal if I knew more about the case mentioned in this post. In my case, the house was only listed in 2005 (at the request of the owners at the time – perhaps… Read more »
I really struggle to find this possible, have you got images of the installation of a conservation property that had uPVC windows added at all?
When we have to produce replica windows for Period properties in notable conservation areas throughout the UK, we’ve had to ensure that the timber windows are as close as possible to the original design. Even to the extent of replicating specific knots within parts of the frame!