How long is too long for a home visit by a sales person in the window and door industry? That was a subject that reared it’s head the other day on Twitter. It was a rather long thread, involving Brian Smith, a Director at the GGF, @DoubleGlazeHour (Garry) and myself. Well, in parts of it. A few others joined the mix as well as the thread went on.
So imagine the scenario. You’re a sales person and you have an appointment to see a home owner at their home for a full house of windows and doors. It’s a decent sized home. A three bed detached. Ten windows, two entrance doors and a pair of French doors. Here’s the question: how long should that visit take? One hour? Two hours? Three hours? Maybe even four hours?
This was the question posed to Brian Smith by Garry:
@bajsmith @myglazing @GGF_News @ConsumerCodes Mr Smith would you allow a 4 Hrs sales call in your home ? #FenestrationFriday #BanTheHardSell
— #DoubleGlazingHour (@DoubleGlazeHour) November 25, 2016
And this was the reply from Brian:
@DoubleGlazeHour @myglazing @GGF_News @ConsumerCodes Just seen your q.I'm very particular so a visit to me I would expect more than 4 hours!
— Brian Smith (@bajsmith) November 25, 2016
The rest of the thread is worth reading if you head over on to Twitter and scroll down the rest of the conversation. Brian clearly knew he was answering a difficult question and had to give that sort of reply to defend his defence of a four hour sit.
Pricing in the home
As the thread goes on, he explains that a four hour sit is justifiable if the sales person in the home is drawing up a contract in the home and trying to sign the customer up there and then. And that for me is a resounding indication of how disconnected organisations like the GGF and others are from a very large part of the market who does not believe in pricing or trying to sign up the customer in the home after a marathon sales process.
He explains that pricing in the home will never end as the Government would see it as a barrier to trade. That sounded a bit spokeman-like to me. Does also sound like pricing in the home and the accompanying high pressure tactics it comes with is being defended behind this stance. Not a high quality approach.
So as you can imagine, the conversation moved from the length of a home visit by a sales person to the ethics of pricing in the home and all that comes with. As many of you will know, I am not a fan of it at all. We don’t do it at our place, and have traded profitably and strongly for nearly 36 continuous years. So don’t tell me that by not pricing in the home and pushing the home owner on the sale there and then doesn’t work because it does.
Now, I do accept, not that I like it, that pricing in the home by a glazing rep, or rep from any other industry, will continue. There will always be glazing companies of a certain type who do that. There is however a very large portion of the industry who do things differently. Who don’t use the much despised hard-sell tactics that have helped to shape a negative view about our industry. It’s these companies that are in total and utter contrast to organisations like the GGF, who seem willing to hide behind various chunks of legislation so as to defend the position that four hour sits are OK.
It was suggested further down the aforementioned Twitter feed that pricing in the home would be OK so long as the sales person left it at that and didn’t then go down the hard-sell route. A nice sentiment. However, I think we can all honestly say that in almost all occasions that does not happen. I know from my own personal experience that it doesn’t happen. Week after week I speak to home owners who have had other reps in who have priced in the home and have then proceeded to drop that price from a great height. Said that it’s only available if they sign it now. Said they would ring their “manager” to get a better deal. Accused the home owner of wasting their time by not signing now. Dear Brian, if a four hour appointment involves any of this, and you think this is OK, then you or your organisation are severely out of touch from a much more educated, savvy general public who wish not to be subjected to these sales methods.
Your opinions valued!
I don’t want to turn this into a rant about the hard-sell again. I’ve already got plans for a very outspoken attack on that in the New Year. However I do want to know what you all think. Should a home sales visit for an average sized house full of windows and doors take four or more hours? Personally I think not and I’ll already be voting No on my own poll. But please spend a second to vote on this before you go ahead and read something else. Here it is:
I think it’s very concerning that a Director of the GGF would justify a home visit of more than four hours. He knows as well as we all do what is happening in that home if it’s taking that long, and I can assure him and everyone else that it won’t be down to the fine tooth-combing of design and aesthetic details.
I will say this. It was nice to get some engagement and interactions from Brian, a top-level member of the GGF, on Twitter. Much gets discussed on the in our industry on there and the more it happens the better in my eyes. However the thread did only highlight to me what I, and perhaps many others thought.
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Hi Jason. I think you and Garry may have misunderstood some of the contents of our Consumer Code regarding sales visits. The sales person must not outstay his welcome so the consumer can ask the salesperson to leave at any time. It is therefore generally “up to” four hours rather than “four hours” as you intimate. Remember that many companies do multiple products so a visit for e.g. a conservatory, roofline, brick drive and solar PV could easily go past four hours, even if split into more than one visit. If an installer prices and/or writes the contract up on… Read more »
Firstly my thanks to DGB for doing above article, from his followers and mine it is obvious that the local installers do not agree with Brian and the GGF. Brian replied once on behalf of Giles Willson when he was at the GGF so is aware that the main issue on the up to 4 hour call is the pressure and discount structure. If a company wants to offer a discount then it is very simple to have a list price say £10000 offer is for say 40% so price equals £6000. I do not agree with but that is… Read more »
I’ve been in this industry some 30 years & for the life of me I can’t imagine what part of my portfolio of products would take 4hrs do demonstrate. I fully agree that we now have many products to demonstrate, but to carry them I would need to take a 7.5 ton lorry. So realistically a rep would maybe carry 2 samples ? With the rest on a laptop or tablet. Is the training given by these new “training centers” of the larger companies encouraging 4hr + visits?
I presume you are writing this as the GGF Director of Home Improvement and main driver of this consumer code and as such I expect you to defend it, but I think you’ll find the Renewable Energy Consumer Code is the sort of thing that gives consumers half a chance , 2 hour sits max, No driven sales on the night , No false discounts , you know, the sort of things that reputable companies do all the time without the need for the spurious tripe your outfit rolls out. For reference https://www.recc.org.uk/scheme/consumer-code specifically part 5.2.2 Pressure selling. You see,… Read more »
My view is simple. Any salesman that’s signs up a customer on the day has at some point in his sales pitch lied in order to get the deal. He’ll have either lied about availability of the product or the performance of the product or the discount available on the product or all three.
Four hours is nonsense. Measure, photograph, explain and answer questions. Then leave and back at the office put together a proper and professional proposal. That’s the right way to do it,
Agree with Dean, Norman and Garry. It is incredible that the GGF are continuing to duck the issue, They are deliberately out of touch – to suit some of their members, I suggest. It’s NOT CLEVER and crowing about it is indecent. We ALL KNOW what goes on, just as Garry has described it. The Code that the GGF has produced and got accepted by some unnamed and clearly uninformed “consumer group” put together by Trading Standards Institute, gives the green light to behaviour that discredits the BEST enterprises in this industry: Enterprises which respect other human beings and simply… Read more »
Your view is totally unfounded and quite simply pathetic. We are a family run, 30 year long trading history firm and we do sign ups on the day. Our pricing is simple and transparent with prices in our local newspaper to give our potential customers an idea on pricing. If you cant price up a house full of windows based on 1200×1200 and 1800×1200 windows with french doors and a composite door on the day then that says a lot about your efficiency as a salesman. It’s not difficult having a pricing matrix and sticking to it. We don’t hard… Read more »
It is not being suggested that if you are in a position to quote on the first visit! There are many reasons why a consumer may ask you to do this. What is objectable is to quote a bogus price (in the hope no doubt of making excessive profits/commisions – from the most vulnerable) and then dropping the price and applying pressure by staying as long as possible. I am sure you will agree, such, so-called salesmanship is dishonest practice, especially when salespeople are trained and expected to use these tactics on every call.
Today I visited a lovely young polish couple. Earlier in the week they had a salesman in from one of the usual suspects who after the usual A4 laminate company presentation quoted £10,000 for two doors. Then after a call to his manager to explain the house was in prime position next to a school ( it’s not) offered a Showhome Discount of £6200 taking the price down to £4800. Everyone reading this, including the niave sounding rep from GGF, knows that this exact scenario will have been repeated hundreds if not thousands of times throughout the country every day… Read more »
As a consumer, I am appalled that one of your Federations is not telling the truth. I and some of my friends have been subjected to hard sell practice by Anglian and Everest . None of us had any idea of this code of practice. I have a copy now and it is ridiculous – it is a charter for the high pressure salesperson. I went through the proceedure mentioned and when the price had dropped from £10,000 to £ 5,000, and I told this chap FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME, I was getting other quotes he was very angry, accused… Read more »
Dear Julie We are sorry to learn of your complaint about unwanted phone calls and not being made aware of the GGF Consumer Code. Would you kindly email us at marketing@ggf.org.uk with details of your address, the GGF Member company concerned and details of the date of the sales visit and the name of the salesperson and the dates of any subsequent phone calls and if possible the name of the person who kept phoning you. We can then investigate with the Member concerned. Would you also please kindly advise what prompted you to post on this blog, how you… Read more »
It is no secret that the company concerned is Anglian. I have no intention of providing the other information you have asked for. Who do you think you are? Such arrogance sums up the whole approach that me and some of my friends have had to endure: The same tactics. You sound EXACTLY like the sales process at Anglian. Do you or have you worked for them, I wonder.
Dear Julie
Thank you for your prompt response.
We are disappointed that you have not provided the requested information. We would very much like to investigate your complaint with the company concerned, and would therefore politely request that you provide us with the information. We will then not only be able to investigate your complaint but it will provide evidence that you are a bona fide consumer posting on this blog.
Many thanks for your further consideration. If you would please email marketing@ggf.org.uk.
Regards, GGF Marketing
What a cheek! You are using the same line that it appears your members follow. Me and my friend know what you are up to – don’t insult us! I’ve since rung the rep. who has left Anglian and apologised for treating the way he was trained to treat me. He has said to tell you you are a fraud – you know what is going on and YOU DONT CARE. You just take the money and don’t give a monkeys about your industry and its reputation. Stop being so bloody dioshonest. Just read Joe’s post – is the single… Read more »
Hi Julie. My point was that a long home visit isn’t, in itself, automatically a bad thing. When a company uses that long visit to apply high pressure sales, THEN it becomes bad. So it’s up to the window company to work out or ask what the customer wants: “Do you want me to give you a price tonight? It will take a little longer than if I send a quote over to you tomorrow.” etc. Or, to put it another way, it should be up to the customer how long a sales visit lasts, whether a price is given… Read more »
Hi Julie,
We are very sorry to hear of such an experience with our company and would like to investigate this internally. Could you please contact us with your address details and some more information about your experience? If you email customer.services@angliangroup.com with the requested information and put it for the attention of Louie, I can look into this further.
Many thanks
Inferring that Julie might not be a “bona fide consumer” really isn’t going to do the GGF’s reputation any good.
Dear GGF I do not know who Julie Smith is, but she is a consumer how can you react like you have ?
We all at some point get complaints and it is a mark on how good you are at dealing with them.
You can google for complaints against your company the Nationals etc. and see very little defence / replies.
I must ask is GGF Marketing being run by GGF or a marketing PR company ?
This post and poll are about length of visit, not whether hard sell techniques are acceptable. I doubt we’ll find anyone defending hard sell tactics, but that doesn’t mean that pricing on the night or long detailed visits should be ‘banned’. The consumer is king in these situations – what they want, our industry should provide. If they want a price on the night, then – if possible – give them that price. If they want you out within an hour and a price by email, that’s what you should do. It’s down to the salesperson to judge and if… Read more »
We agree. The sales pitch should be led entirely by the customer – a salesman should be able to tell how the client is feeling and when it’s time to leave them alone and let them make their decision. We have had phone calls of over 45 minutes just arranging a quote visit so I can imagine how on occasion a 4-hour visit might occur, but it certainly shouldn’t be the norm and I would imagine after 4 hours I would feel pressured in my home and would be likely to agree to something just to make the salesman leave!
Wow this is all interesting! We have “Mrs Smith” complaining but refusing to give out her info????? I see Anglian have asked “Mrs Smith” now. If she’s going to complain I think she needs to back it up. You got to wonder.
I used to work for a ggf member years ago and we did price on the night and very rarely went past four hours TBH